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Doug Seven (VIP)

If you have the time, please comment:

We are working on our next book, "Building Custom Controls for ASP.NET". In
the "Programming Data-Driven..." book we had all code samples in both VB.NET
and C#. While there is now way we are going to do that with all the code
samples in the next book (we have some case studies, and it just is
inefficent), we will be providing download code sampels in both languages.

My question is, how useful did you find this? We are wondering if we should
have samples in both C# and VB.NET when we introduce a topic. After the
introduction, the code samples in the book will be C# only. What I mean by
this is, if I am introducing how to do something, I would provide a short
demo in both languages, then as I expand on the topic, the samples would be
only in C#. I would love some feedback. Is this a good idea? Is it
appreciated? Is it unnecessary in an intermediate-level book? Are we wasting
our time, and your page space?

As I said, all samples will be in both languages as a download, but I
curious about what we should have in the text.

Remember...we are asking for feedback, and we reserve the right to refuse
service...I mean, make our own decision. but, this book is for you, so we
want to make sure you like it :)

______________________________________________
doug seven | sr. developer | dotnetjunkies.com

Learn ASP.NET - Read the books...
Programming Data-Driven Web Applications with ASP.NET
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672321068/dotnetjunkies-20/107-10642
54-2553318

ASP.NET: Tips, Tutorials and Code
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672321432/dotnetjunkies-20/107-10642
54-2553318

Coming Soon!
Professional ADO.NET
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/186100527X/dotnetjunkies-20/

Reply to this message...

Mitch Denny (VIP)

Doug,

Normally, I would leap out and say C# all the way, but I feel
that a large portion of your audience, like it or not
are VB.NET users.

Not that I am saying that VB programmers are petty, but I think
they would reject a book which focuses on C# too much and
ignores VB. When I think about your recent Tips book, many
of the code samples were in VB.NET. As a C# programmer I didn't
really mind mentall converting the code in my head as I read.

Actually, to be more precise, I think alot of C# programmers
can read and write VB.NET without any problems.

Bottom line; stick to VB.NET for the case study (even if you
don't like coding in VB.NET, do you dual languages in the
small samples, but put VB.NET first.

----------------------------------------
- Mitch Denny
- http://www.warbyte.com
- Click here to reveal e-mail address
- +61 (414) 610-141
-

[Original message clipped]

54-2553318

ASP.NET: Tips, Tutorials and Code
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672321432/dotnetjunkies-20/107-1
0642
54-2553318

Coming Soon!
Professional ADO.NET
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/186100527X/dotnetjunkies-20/

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Reply to this message...

Charles Carroll

Either
a) put out two books a Vb.net and C# one
I once made identical documentation sets for
Powerbuilder and VB code and produced separate
documents. Clever use of IFs and Global variables in
Framemaker.

b) Include both samples. I get books to read code
samples, not download them. As a VB.net programmer who
reads books in cars, lines at KFC, on planes, etc. I
expect most of the code to be in the text or the book
is of limited use to me.

c) Include high level explanations and elipses in
major code chunks. While I don't like that approach
preferring above, a 4-40 page program should probably
be presented as object pseudo-code, flowcharts, UML
diagrams and comments about method calls, rather than
details of the method call. Any non-trivial program
with hundreds of method calls some are more
interesting than others.

--- Doug Seven <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote:
[Original message clipped]

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Scott A. Mahler

Doug,
As a person who has bought both of your ASP.net books,
and as a strict VB user (I'm having a hard enough time learning all new
stuff to bother trying to learn C#)
I personally would prefer to see it in both.
1. This helps me, because I will typically read through a book and then
start to attack the examples.
2. I don't like downloaded code samples as I prefer to try what is in
the book and read the explanations as I'm doing it
3. When I want to learn C# it would be nice to see it against VB, which
will make learning easier.

Anyway thats my 2 cents

Thanks

Scott Mahler

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Seven [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 1:48 PM
To: aspng-pddwa
Subject: [aspng-pddwa] Code Sample Question

If you have the time, please comment:

We are working on our next book, "Building Custom Controls for ASP.NET".
In
the "Programming Data-Driven..." book we had all code samples in both
VB.NET
and C#. While there is now way we are going to do that with all the
code
samples in the next book (we have some case studies, and it just is
inefficent), we will be providing download code sampels in both
languages.

My question is, how useful did you find this? We are wondering if we
should
have samples in both C# and VB.NET when we introduce a topic. After the
introduction, the code samples in the book will be C# only. What I mean
by
this is, if I am introducing how to do something, I would provide a
short
demo in both languages, then as I expand on the topic, the samples would
be
only in C#. I would love some feedback. Is this a good idea? Is it
appreciated? Is it unnecessary in an intermediate-level book? Are we
wasting
our time, and your page space?

As I said, all samples will be in both languages as a download, but I
curious about what we should have in the text.

Remember...we are asking for feedback, and we reserve the right to
refuse
service...I mean, make our own decision. but, this book is for you, so
we
want to make sure you like it :)

______________________________________________
doug seven | sr. developer | dotnetjunkies.com

Learn ASP.NET - Read the books...
Programming Data-Driven Web Applications with ASP.NET
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672321068/dotnetjunkies-20/107-1
0642
54-2553318

ASP.NET: Tips, Tutorials and Code
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672321432/dotnetjunkies-20/107-1
0642
54-2553318

Coming Soon!
Professional ADO.NET
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/186100527X/dotnetjunkies-20/

| [aspng-pddwa] member Click here to reveal e-mail address =3D YOUR ID
| http://www.aspfriends.com/aspfriends/aspng-pddwa.asp =3D JOIN/QUIT

Reply to this message...

GfWeis

Based on the content in your "Programming Data-Driven..." book, I'll buy it
with either the VB or the C# samples even though I only use C# - one version
of samples in the book is more than sufficient - especially when you
consider the syntax similarities between C# and VB. A real good chapter to
include would be on the disassembly protection of the final compiled control
code.

Just my thoughts.

Gfw

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Seven [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 3:48 PM
To: aspng-pddwa
Subject: [aspng-pddwa] Code Sample Question

If you have the time, please comment:

We are working on our next book, "Building Custom Controls for ASP.NET". In
the "Programming Data-Driven..." book we had all code samples in both VB.NET
and C#. While there is now way we are going to do that with all the code
samples in the next book (we have some case studies, and it just is
inefficent), we will be providing download code sampels in both languages.

My question is, how useful did you find this? We are wondering if we should
have samples in both C# and VB.NET when we introduce a topic. After the
introduction, the code samples in the book will be C# only. What I mean by
this is, if I am introducing how to do something, I would provide a short
demo in both languages, then as I expand on the topic, the samples would be
only in C#. I would love some feedback. Is this a good idea? Is it
appreciated? Is it unnecessary in an intermediate-level book? Are we wasting
our time, and your page space?

As I said, all samples will be in both languages as a download, but I
curious about what we should have in the text.

Remember...we are asking for feedback, and we reserve the right to refuse
service...I mean, make our own decision. but, this book is for you, so we
want to make sure you like it :)

______________________________________________
doug seven | sr. developer | dotnetjunkies.com

Learn ASP.NET - Read the books...
Programming Data-Driven Web Applications with ASP.NET
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672321068/dotnetjunkies-20/107-10642
54-2553318

ASP.NET: Tips, Tutorials and Code
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672321432/dotnetjunkies-20/107-10642
54-2553318

Coming Soon!
Professional ADO.NET
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/186100527X/dotnetjunkies-20/

| [aspng-pddwa] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID
| http://www.aspfriends.com/aspfriends/aspng-pddwa.asp = JOIN/QUIT

Reply to this message...

Jeff Laughlin

Well. I'm going through the Data-Driven book now and I must admit that
I really do like having the VB.net and C# code together. I prefer C# as
a language but I really like being able to see the VB.net way of doing
things right there. Especially since when I am reading I'm never at a
computer so downloadable code really doesn't do anything for me.

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Seven [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
Sent: October 21, 2001 4:48 PM
To: aspng-pddwa
Subject: [aspng-pddwa] Code Sample Question

If you have the time, please comment:

We are working on our next book, "Building Custom Controls for ASP.NET".
In the "Programming Data-Driven..." book we had all code samples in both
VB.NET and C#. While there is now way we are going to do that with all
the code samples in the next book (we have some case studies, and it
just is inefficent), we will be providing download code sampels in both
languages.

My question is, how useful did you find this? We are wondering if we
should have samples in both C# and VB.NET when we introduce a topic.
After the introduction, the code samples in the book will be C# only.
What I mean by this is, if I am introducing how to do something, I would
provide a short demo in both languages, then as I expand on the topic,
the samples would be only in C#. I would love some feedback. Is this a
good idea? Is it appreciated? Is it unnecessary in an intermediate-level
book? Are we wasting our time, and your page space?

As I said, all samples will be in both languages as a download, but I
curious about what we should have in the text.

Remember...we are asking for feedback, and we reserve the right to
refuse service...I mean, make our own decision. but, this book is for
you, so we want to make sure you like it :)

______________________________________________
doug seven | sr. developer | dotnetjunkies.com

Learn ASP.NET - Read the books...
Programming Data-Driven Web Applications with ASP.NET
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672321068/dotnetjunkies-20/107-1
0642
54-2553318

ASP.NET: Tips, Tutorials and Code
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672321432/dotnetjunkies-20/107-1
0642
54-2553318

Coming Soon!
Professional ADO.NET
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/186100527X/dotnetjunkies-20/

| [aspng-pddwa] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID
| http://www.aspfriends.com/aspfriends/aspng-pddwa.asp = JOIN/QUIT

Reply to this message...

Bob Levittan (VIP)

I don't know about anyone else, but it peeves me a little that after writing
VB programs for 11 years including ASP VBScript programs for part of that
time, that now much of the documentation and books that are of the most
interest to me concerning the next generation of the technology that I and
my cohorts brought to this point are written using C# examples instead of
VB. Then again, I'll live either way.

----Original Message Follows----

If you have the time, please comment:

We are working on our next book, "Building Custom Controls for ASP.NET". In
the "Programming Data-Driven..." book we had all code samples in both VB.NET
and C#. While there is now way we are going to do that with all the code
samples in the next book (we have some case studies, and it just is
inefficent), we will be providing download code sampels in both languages.

My question is, how useful did you find this? We are wondering if we should
have samples in both C# and VB.NET when we introduce a topic. After the
introduction, the code samples in the book will be C# only. What I mean by
this is, if I am introducing how to do something, I would provide a short
demo in both languages, then as I expand on the topic, the samples would be
only in C#. I would love some feedback. Is this a good idea? Is it
appreciated? Is it unnecessary in an intermediate-level book? Are we wasting
our time, and your page space?

As I said, all samples will be in both languages as a download, but I
curious about what we should have in the text.

Remember...we are asking for feedback, and we reserve the right to refuse
service...I mean, make our own decision. but, this book is for you, so we
want to make sure you like it :)

______________________________________________
doug seven | sr. developer | dotnetjunkies.com

Learn ASP.NET - Read the books...
Programming Data-Driven Web Applications with ASP.NET
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672321068/dotnetjunkies-20/107-10642
54-2553318

ASP.NET: Tips, Tutorials and Code
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672321432/dotnetjunkies-20/107-10642
54-2553318

Coming Soon!
Professional ADO.NET
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/186100527X/dotnetjunkies-20/

| [aspng-pddwa] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID
| http://www.aspfriends.com/aspfriends/aspng-pddwa.asp = JOIN/QUIT

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

Reply to this message...

-=- rOnNeL -=-

hi doug,

i think it much better if the text will in vb and c#. coz i myseft a vb programmer ang i want to jump to c# eventually (using asp.net technology), and i want to do that by comparing vb codes to c# codes. i hope this helps. (but if doing a book both in vb.net and c# will cost us a lot, i think u should do it in vb.net)

cheers! continue producing easy to digest books. more power.

Ronnel A. Santiago

aspng-pddwa wrote:

[Original message clipped]

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Reply to this message...

Pete Ehli

OK I'll stick my neck out here; my feelings are that the brunt on control
development will be done in C#, as most current control designers (Windows)
write C++ and COM. Also I have read various articles that speculate that
there will be a dumbing down of VB.NET by Microsoft, with C# being the
preferred language for creating Web Services and such things as Server
Controls. Case in point, Wrox is coming out with a new book about Web
Services and all the "in book" example code is C#. Hmmm I wonder why that
is? ;-)

If VB.NET were to try and keep up with C#, Microsoft would lose a lot of VB
6 programmers trying to make the transition to VB.NET. I myself doubt that
standardization will last for C#. Standardization makes no sense if C#'s
going to keep ahead of Java and stay usable for the most current cutting
edge technology. ***My prediction*** is, VB.NET and C# will both be
proprietary, and they will be targeted at different applications, but what
you write in VB.NET you can always write in C#, but not the other way
around! There is no reason to have two languages that do the same things,
and the evolution of .NET will also show the evolution and divergence of
these two languages in separate directions.

Myself I hate dual language books. I pay for the C# code not VB.NET. I
would rather have a short concise book, and pay more for it to have one
language. I don't have anything against VB or the people that program it, I
just don't know it, and don't see any reason for myself to learn it. Right
now I am working through "Professional ASP.NET". This is an excellent book,
but most of the examples use inline VB.NET code, and rewriting these
examples in C# using the code-behind is a pain. Again the concepts in this
book are great, but the best way to learn how to program is to type in the
examples yourself, and the way "Professional ASP.NET" is setup doesn't make
this a joy. Ok, now that I have ruffled a few feathers - flame away. And if
you completely disagree with me, only time will tell which of us will eat
crow for lunch, and hey if it's me no big deal, it wouldn't be the first
time. :-)

- Pete Ehli -

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Seven [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 1:48 PM
To: aspng-pddwa
Subject: [aspng-pddwa] Code Sample Question

If you have the time, please comment:

We are working on our next book, "Building Custom Controls for ASP.NET". In
the "Programming Data-Driven..." book we had all code samples in both VB.NET
and C#. While there is now way we are going to do that with all the code
samples in the next book (we have some case studies, and it just is
inefficent), we will be providing download code sampels in both languages.

My question is, how useful did you find this? We are wondering if we should
have samples in both C# and VB.NET when we introduce a topic. After the
introduction, the code samples in the book will be C# only. What I mean by
this is, if I am introducing how to do something, I would provide a short
demo in both languages, then as I expand on the topic, the samples would be
only in C#. I would love some feedback. Is this a good idea? Is it
appreciated? Is it unnecessary in an intermediate-level book? Are we wasting
our time, and your page space?

As I said, all samples will be in both languages as a download, but I
curious about what we should have in the text.

Remember...we are asking for feedback, and we reserve the right to refuse
service...I mean, make our own decision. but, this book is for you, so we
want to make sure you like it :)

______________________________________________
doug seven | sr. developer | dotnetjunkies.com

Learn ASP.NET - Read the books...
Programming Data-Driven Web Applications with ASP.NET
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672321068/dotnetjunkies-20/107-10642
54-2553318

ASP.NET: Tips, Tutorials and Code
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0672321432/dotnetjunkies-20/107-10642
54-2553318

Coming Soon!
Professional ADO.NET
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/186100527X/dotnetjunkies-20/

| [aspng-pddwa] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID
| http://www.aspfriends.com/aspfriends/aspng-pddwa.asp = JOIN/QUIT

Reply to this message...

Charles Carroll

This stuck out kneck will get chopped off.

Bill Gates will never tolerate VB.net as a second class citizen. He didn't
tolerate it when Java did it so made an impure Java, and the facts are control
development in VB.net has all facilities C# has except XML comments and that
will come with next minor release of VB.net.

WROX or any publishers do not make MS's decisions. Gates does. If he notices
any discrepancy in power, he will straighten out the matter quickly. Bill Gates
loves VB and the Java/C++ factions of Microsoft love C#. Guess who writes the
checks and makes all the major technical decisions when push comes to a shove.

The nonsense you read in Eweek / Infoworld that was a rumor someone heard
someone say standing around in a Fawcette convention is exactly that. Their are
some things like inline IL coming to C# and there are some "super commands"
coming to VB.net 2.x that will make bigger apps quicker to write that will move
it AHEAD of C#...

[Original message clipped]

Read:
http://www.desaware.com/Ebook2L2.htm
VB.net does keep up with C#! Do your homework.

It also ALWAYS writes CLS code whereas C# can write non-managed non-CLS code
which means its code will not play well with CLR if Developers are not careful
which is a huge liability.

--- Pete Ehli <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote:
[Original message clipped]

__________________________________________________
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Reply to this message...

Bob Levittan (VIP)

"It's deja vu all over again"

Now that .Net is at the verge of RTM, the coneheads are at it again. I've
been a VB programmer since VB version 1, and I've heard every crack about VB
(and before that Basic) that you can imagine:

"It's not really a language because it's not compiled. It's more of a
scripting language." I remember VB1 - it output 'intermediate code' that was
interpreted by the VB runtime (sound familiar? Kind of like IL and the CLR?)
Yet millions of programmers jumped on board the VB wagon because it allowed
them to focus on buisness problems, not technical ones. That really peeved
the coneheads, always looking down their noses and taking the moral high
road. Bill Gates on the other hand, has always focused on the bottom line -
that is, helping businesses solve business problems. The coneheads could
care less about business - they're too busy managing their heap and laughing
at the VB programmers.

Then of course, there's ASP. Most ASP apps are written in VB Script (except
for the ones written in Javascript by people who just couldn't lower
themselves to using anything that has the word 'basic' in it.) It so
happens, that if it weren't for ASP, there would be no ASP.NET. There would
be no need for C#. You're welcome.

As far as VB being dumbed down, considering that this is BY FAR the most
capable version of VB, I'd have to call it 'smartened up'. If anything has
been dumbed down it is C++ being dumbed down to C#. You know, I may be
crazy, but I think that EVEN A VB PROGRAMMER could use C#.

Anyway, maybe I'm missing something, but I thought that you could use any
.NET language that you want? So...some people can use C#, and some can use
VB...or J#, or Perl, or even COBOL! OK? Problems?

Bob Levittan

----Original Message Follows----
From: Charles Carroll <Click here to reveal e-mail address>
Reply-To: "aspng-pddwa" <Click here to reveal e-mail address>
To: "aspng-pddwa" <Click here to reveal e-mail address>
Subject: [aspng-pddwa] RE: Code Sample Question
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 05:29:47 -0800 (PST)

This stuck out kneck will get chopped off.

Bill Gates will never tolerate VB.net as a second class citizen. He didn't
tolerate it when Java did it so made an impure Java, and the facts are
control
development in VB.net has all facilities C# has except XML comments and that
will come with next minor release of VB.net.

WROX or any publishers do not make MS's decisions. Gates does. If he notices
any discrepancy in power, he will straighten out the matter quickly. Bill
Gates
loves VB and the Java/C++ factions of Microsoft love C#. Guess who writes
the
checks and makes all the major technical decisions when push comes to a
shove.

The nonsense you read in Eweek / Infoworld that was a rumor someone heard
someone say standing around in a Fawcette convention is exactly that. Their
are
some things like inline IL coming to C# and there are some "super commands"
coming to VB.net 2.x that will make bigger apps quicker to write that will
move
it AHEAD of C#...

> If VB.NET were to try and keep up with C#, Microsoft would lose a lot of
VB
> 6 programmers trying to make the transition to VB.NET.

Read:
http://www.desaware.com/Ebook2L2.htm
VB.net does keep up with C#! Do your homework.

It also ALWAYS writes CLS code whereas C# can write non-managed non-CLS code
which means its code will not play well with CLR if Developers are not
careful
which is a huge liability.

--- Pete Ehli <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote:
[Original message clipped]

__________________________________________________
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Reply to this message...

Charles Carroll

I agree with much of what you say although I would say even more if we are on
the Debate C# vs. VB list @
http://www.aspfriends.com/aspfriends/debate.asp
but you are correct.

I would however disagree vehmently that the CLR/IL is interpreted in any form.
IL is jit compiled and then the COMPILED native machine code is executed. VB1
was Pcode and Java is byte-code. These are interpreted in many cases (a few
Java compilers JIT compile too). IL code is translated into machine code and
then run as native machine code. There is a reason Microsoft's JVM was 6 x the
speed of Suns on Intel -- MS believes all CLR language should become fast
machine code -- not interpreted in any form.

The existence of garbage collection, similar core libraries to Java's (but the
.net FW offers many more stock objects) into assuming IL is interpreted like
many Java byte code execution environments.

--- Bob Levittan <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote:
[Original message clipped]

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
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Reply to this message...

Bob Levittan (VIP)

It should be on the debate link, but just one point - I wasn't saying that
the CLR is an interpreter, I was just pointing how they are similar in
terminology - Intermediate Language vs Intermediate Code, Common Language
Runtime vs VB Runtime. The runtimes do serve similar functions except that
one interprets and the other compiles. My point is that I see more of a
lineage of .NET from VB than from C, which makes jumping to C# not as
imperative as others seem to think.

----Original Message Follows----
From: Charles Carroll <Click here to reveal e-mail address>
Reply-To: "aspng-pddwa" <Click here to reveal e-mail address>
To: "aspng-pddwa" <Click here to reveal e-mail address>
Subject: [aspng-pddwa] RE: Code Sample Question
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 11:25:05 -0800 (PST)

I agree with much of what you say although I would say even more if we are
on
the Debate C# vs. VB list @
http://www.aspfriends.com/aspfriends/debate.asp
but you are correct.

I would however disagree vehmently that the CLR/IL is interpreted in any
form.
IL is jit compiled and then the COMPILED native machine code is executed.
VB1
was Pcode and Java is byte-code. These are interpreted in many cases (a few
Java compilers JIT compile too). IL code is translated into machine code and
then run as native machine code. There is a reason Microsoft's JVM was 6 x
the
speed of Suns on Intel -- MS believes all CLR language should become fast
machine code -- not interpreted in any form.

The existence of garbage collection, similar core libraries to Java's (but
the
.net FW offers many more stock objects) into assuming IL is interpreted like
many Java byte code execution environments.

--- Bob Levittan <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote:
[Original message clipped]

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Charles Carroll

Agreed.

I always said the CLR was the VB version8 runtime + free threaded/agile memory
thread model.

And the CLR being available with C# allows a C++ style language to have the
powers VB6 programmers have had for years. Years before C#!!!!!!!!!!!!

--- Bob Levittan <Click here to reveal e-mail address> wrote:
[Original message clipped]

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Reply to this message...

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