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Random Number Question
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This message was discovered on ASPFriends.com 'aspngcs' list.


Stewart Haddock
I am working with a Random number and I noticed that the "Next" method does
not generate the max number. So "RandomNumber.Next(0,2);" will only
generate 0 and 1.

Any ideas?

Here is the code
-------------------------------------------------------------------
<%@ Page Language="C#"%>
<script runat="Server">
public void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e)
{
    Random RandomNumber = new Random();
    
    int i = RandomNumber.Next(0,2);
    
    Display.Text = i.ToString();
}
</script>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<html>
    <body>
        <asp:Label id="Display" runat="server"/>
    </body>
</html>
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks,

Stewart Haddock
IT -- Migration
http://www.interland.com
Reply to this message...
 
    
Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz
That is the intended result. Check the docs:

Return Value
A number greater than or equal to minValue and less than maxValue. If
minValue equals maxValue, minValue is returned.

Thus, it can never equal maxValue (second parameter).

-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Stewart Haddock [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
->
-> I am working with a Random number and I noticed that the "Next"
method
-> does
-> not generate the max number. So "RandomNumber.Next(0,2);" will only
-> generate 0 and 1.
->
-> Any ideas?
->
-> Here is the code
-> -------------------------------------------------------------------
-> <%@ Page Language="C#"%>
-> <script runat="Server">
-> public void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e)
-> {
->     Random RandomNumber = new Random();
->
->     int i = RandomNumber.Next(0,2);
->
->     Display.Text = i.ToString();
-> }
-> </script>
-> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
-> <html>
->     <body>
->         <asp:Label id="Display" runat="server"/>
->     </body>
-> </html>
-> -------------------------------------------------------------------
->
-> Thanks,
->
-> Stewart Haddock

---
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Minh Truong
> I am working with a Random number and I noticed that the "Next" method
does
[Original message clipped]

2 is the max number which the resulting random number is not suppose to
equal. So if you want 0, 1, 2 as your random numbers, just use
RandomNumber.Next(0, 3); They could easily make it work the way you wanted,
but, probably, for historical reasons, elect to do it that way.
Reply to this message...
 
    
Brian W. Spolarich

Anyone know how strong the .NET RNG is? Does it have any source of =
entropy (i.e. kernel ticks, etc.)?

-bws

| -----Original Message-----
| From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
| Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:30 AM
| To: aspngcs
| Subject: [aspngcs] RE: Random Number Question
|=20
|=20
| That is the intended result. Check the docs:
|=20
| Return Value
| A number greater than or equal to minValue and less than maxValue. If
| minValue equals maxValue, minValue is returned.
|=20
| Thus, it can never equal maxValue (second parameter).
Reply to this message...
 
    
Sachidanandam E K
I guess it should be

Display.Text =RandomNumber.Next(2).ToString();

If i am not correct let me know!!

Sachidanandam.E.K
Member Techinical Staff

HCLT KT-ODC
Click here to reveal e-mail address
<mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address>

-----Original Message-----
From: Stewart Haddock [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 5:36 PM
To: aspngcs
Subject: [aspngcs] Random Number Question

I am working with a Random number and I noticed that the "Next" method does
not generate the max number. So "RandomNumber.Next(0,2);" will only
generate 0 and 1.

Any ideas?

Here is the code
-------------------------------------------------------------------
<%@ Page Language="C#"%>
<script runat="Server">
public void Page_Load(Object sender, EventArgs e)
{
    Random RandomNumber = new Random();

    int i = RandomNumber.Next(0,2);

    Display.Text = i.ToString();
}
</script>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<html>
    <body>
        <asp:Label id="Display" runat="server"/>
    </body>
</html>
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks,

Stewart Haddock
IT -- Migration
http://www.interland.com

| [aspngcs] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID
| http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspngcs.asp = JOIN/QUIT
Reply to this message...
 
    
Joel Mueller
This threw me off too, until I realized that this behavior is completely
consistent with the documentation for Random.Next().

Return Value: A number greater than or equal to minValue and less than
maxValue.

I think this behavior is pretty counterintuitive, but it's too late to
change now without breaking a bunch of existing code that depends on the
current behavior, so I guess we might as well get used to it.

    - Joel

[Original message clipped]
Reply to this message...
 
    
Joel Mueller
If you're concerned about that, you might want to look at
System.Security.Cryptography.RandomNumberGenerator...

[Original message clipped]
Reply to this message...
 
    
Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz
>From what I've seen it is fairly random within the instance but repeats
horribly otherwise. Had a page that spat out 10 random numbers twice
using the same loop but a different Random object. Same numbers would
come up every time I loaded the page ;) I can't remember the exact
circumstances now, but it was unusable at the time.

I'd suggest implementing a better random number generator (did it myself
for one project, could send it to you if you want).

-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Brian W. Spolarich [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
->
-> Anyone know how strong the .NET RNG is? Does it have any source of
-> entropy (i.e. kernel ticks, etc.)?
->
-> -bws
->
-> | -----Original Message-----
-> | From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
-> |
-> | That is the intended result. Check the docs:
-> |
-> | Return Value
-> | A number greater than or equal to minValue and less than maxValue.
If
-> | minValue equals maxValue, minValue is returned.
-> |
-> | Thus, it can never equal maxValue (second parameter).

---
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Reply to this message...
 
    
=?iso-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_Carreiro?=
Ryan,

Were you using a seed?

Jo=E3o Paulo Carreiro

-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
Sent: 02 July 2002 17:58
To: aspngcs
Subject: [aspngcs] RE: Random Number Question

>From what I've seen it is fairly random within the instance but =
repeats
horribly otherwise. Had a page that spat out 10 random numbers twice
using the same loop but a different Random object. Same numbers would
come up every time I loaded the page ;) I can't remember the exact
circumstances now, but it was unusable at the time.

I'd suggest implementing a better random number generator (did it =
myself
for one project, could send it to you if you want).

-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Brian W. Spolarich [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
->=20
-> Anyone know how strong the .NET RNG is? Does it have any source =
of
-> entropy (i.e. kernel ticks, etc.)?
->=20
-> -bws
->=20
-> | -----Original Message-----
-> | From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
-> |
-> | That is the intended result. Check the docs:
-> |
-> | Return Value
-> | A number greater than or equal to minValue and less than maxValue.
If
-> | minValue equals maxValue, minValue is returned.
-> |
-> | Thus, it can never equal maxValue (second parameter).

---
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| [aspngcs] member Click here to reveal e-mail address =3D YOUR ID
| http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspngcs.asp =3D JOIN/QUIT

_____________________________________________________________________
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Reply to this message...
 
    
Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz
Tried it with and without, Tried randomizing the seed with another
randomizer. Tried that 3 levels deep as well, still came out the same...
Wonder if I still have the test page for that, probably destroyed it
when I did my own RNG...

-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Jo=E3o Carreiro [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
->=20
-> Ryan,
->=20
-> Were you using a seed?
->=20
-> Jo=E3o Paulo Carreiro
->=20
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
->=20
-> >From what I've seen it is fairly random within the instance but
repeats
-> horribly otherwise. Had a page that spat out 10 random numbers twice
-> using the same loop but a different Random object. Same numbers would
-> come up every time I loaded the page ;) I can't remember the exact
-> circumstances now, but it was unusable at the time.
->=20
-> I'd suggest implementing a better random number generator (did it
myself
-> for one project, could send it to you if you want).
->=20
-> -> -----Original Message-----
-> -> From: Brian W. Spolarich
[mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
-> ->
-> -> Anyone know how strong the .NET RNG is? Does it have any source
of
-> -> entropy (i.e. kernel ticks, etc.)?
-> ->
-> -> -bws
-> ->
-> -> | -----Original Message-----
-> -> | From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
-> -> |
-> -> | That is the intended result. Check the docs:
-> -> |
-> -> | Return Value
-> -> | A number greater than or equal to minValue and less than
maxValue.
-> If
-> -> | minValue equals maxValue, minValue is returned.
-> -> |
-> -> | Thus, it can never equal maxValue (second parameter).

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
Reply to this message...
 
    
Koen De Waele
You also could use the RNGCryptoServiceProvider class
(System.Security.Cryptography).
The RNGCryptoServiceProvider is another implementation of a random
number generator.

from the docs:

Random number generation is integral to many cryptographic operations.
For example, cryptographic keys need to be as random as possible so that
it is infeasible to reproduce them. Cryptographic random number
generators must generate output that is computationally infeasible to
predict with better than a probability of p < .05; that is, any method
of predicting the next output bit must not perform better than random
guessing. The classes in the .NET Framework use random number generators
to generate cryptographic keys.

Example
The length of the byte array determines how many cryptographically
strong random bytes are produced.
The following example creates a random sequence 100 bytes long and
stores it in random.

byte[] random = new Byte[100];

RNGCryptoServiceProvider rng = new RNGCryptoServiceProvider();
rng.GetBytes(random); // The array is now filled with cryptographically
strong random bytes.

You will have some extra work with the byte array conversion but this
should not be a problem.

Hope this helps,

Koen

Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz wrote:

[Original message clipped]
Reply to this message...
 
    
Stephen Rees
<html>
<script language="C#" runat="server">
protected void Page_Load(Object Src, EventArgs E )
{
        for(int i=0;i<1000;i++)
        {
            Response.Write("Random number is " + GetRandom(i).ToString() + "<br>");
        }
}

    public int GetRandom(int i)
        {
            Random rnd = new Random(i);
            return rnd.Next();
        }

</script>
<body style="font: 8pt verdana">
</body>
</html>

works fine.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
Sent: 03 July 2002 02:13
To: aspngcs
Subject: [aspngcs] RE: Random Number Question

Tried it with and without, Tried randomizing the seed with another
randomizer. Tried that 3 levels deep as well, still came out the same...
Wonder if I still have the test page for that, probably destroyed it
when I did my own RNG...

-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: João Carreiro [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
->
-> Ryan,
->
-> Were you using a seed?
->
-> João Paulo Carreiro
->
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
->
-> >From what I've seen it is fairly random within the instance but
repeats
-> horribly otherwise. Had a page that spat out 10 random numbers twice
-> using the same loop but a different Random object. Same numbers would
-> come up every time I loaded the page ;) I can't remember the exact
-> circumstances now, but it was unusable at the time.
->
-> I'd suggest implementing a better random number generator (did it
myself
-> for one project, could send it to you if you want).
->
-> -> -----Original Message-----
-> -> From: Brian W. Spolarich
[mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
-> ->
-> -> Anyone know how strong the .NET RNG is? Does it have any source
of
-> -> entropy (i.e. kernel ticks, etc.)?
-> ->
-> -> -bws
-> ->
-> -> | -----Original Message-----
-> -> | From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
-> -> |
-> -> | That is the intended result. Check the docs:
-> -> |
-> -> | Return Value
-> -> | A number greater than or equal to minValue and less than
maxValue.
-> If
-> -> | minValue equals maxValue, minValue is returned.
-> -> |
-> -> | Thus, it can never equal maxValue (second parameter).

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]

| [aspngcs] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID
| http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspngcs.asp = JOIN/QUIT
Reply to this message...
 
    
Stephen Rees
If it doesn't have to be numeric, just something unique for a database then
why not use

<html>
<script language="C#" runat="server">
protected void Page_Load(Object Src, EventArgs E )
{
for(int i=0;i<1000;i++)
{
Response.Write("Random number is " +
System.Guid.NewGuid().ToString() + "<br>");
}
}
</script>
<body style="font: 8pt verdana">
</body>
</html>

Steve.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
Sent: 03 July 2002 02:13
To: aspngcs
Subject: [aspngcs] RE: Random Number Question

Tried it with and without, Tried randomizing the seed with another
randomizer. Tried that 3 levels deep as well, still came out the same...
Wonder if I still have the test page for that, probably destroyed it
when I did my own RNG...

-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: João Carreiro [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
->
-> Ryan,
->
-> Were you using a seed?
->
-> João Paulo Carreiro
->
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
->
-> >From what I've seen it is fairly random within the instance but
repeats
-> horribly otherwise. Had a page that spat out 10 random numbers twice
-> using the same loop but a different Random object. Same numbers would
-> come up every time I loaded the page ;) I can't remember the exact
-> circumstances now, but it was unusable at the time.
->
-> I'd suggest implementing a better random number generator (did it
myself
-> for one project, could send it to you if you want).
->
-> -> -----Original Message-----
-> -> From: Brian W. Spolarich
[mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
-> ->
-> -> Anyone know how strong the .NET RNG is? Does it have any source
of
-> -> entropy (i.e. kernel ticks, etc.)?
-> ->
-> -> -bws
-> ->
-> -> | -----Original Message-----
-> -> | From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
-> -> |
-> -> | That is the intended result. Check the docs:
-> -> |
-> -> | Return Value
-> -> | A number greater than or equal to minValue and less than
maxValue.
-> If
-> -> | minValue equals maxValue, minValue is returned.
-> -> |
-> -> | Thus, it can never equal maxValue (second parameter).

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]

| [aspngcs] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID
| http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspngcs.asp = JOIN/QUIT
Reply to this message...
 
    
Stephen Rees
Daft innit ...

They shown us that thay can get the guid to produce randomness/uniqueness
within a loop - but the random generator can only produce randomness with
unique seeds, so it's not really doing anything is it - it's just mapping a
locally unique number into a larger space.
The same ssed will produce the same number EVERY time.
They suggest using (int)DateTime.Now.Ticks as a seed, which is wrong isn't
it - we are then getting our functionality from the fact that time moves
forward, and it is limited in uniqueness only by how fast our computers are
and how big the numbers are it can handle.

If you don't use a seed then that would be a proper random number, but it
repeats if you use it too fast. Why ? probably some physical reason to do
with addresses and memory and so forth.
So maybe we can wipe that address within our code, perhaps using a
destructor (I dunno) ?

But we are wrong here, we are using the term Random to give us what we want,
which is really uniqueness - and they are different things.

And there is a flaw here, logically.
If the seeds have infinite range then the random numbers based on and as
unique as those seeds would occupy an infiniteinfinite range, so unless it
was a perfect 1-1 mapping it cannot happen (or not in this universe
anyway) - besides the random number has MaxValue so it cannot. The result
must be that numerous seeds will produce the same random number.

Arrrggggg ....

I know what I'd do, grab a guid, parse it taking each 2nd letters ASCII char
and multiplying it by each 3rd number and loop back on itself the same
number of time sthat there are letters in your name, then double it and
square it, half it and muliply it by how old your mum is in millisecs since
you were born, then square it again and take the cube root and the use it as
a seed in the random generator ... this last step being totally optional and
indeed pretty irrelevant.

Steve.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
Sent: 03 July 2002 02:13
To: aspngcs
Subject: [aspngcs] RE: Random Number Question

Tried it with and without, Tried randomizing the seed with another
randomizer. Tried that 3 levels deep as well, still came out the same...
Wonder if I still have the test page for that, probably destroyed it
when I did my own RNG...

-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: João Carreiro [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
->
-> Ryan,
->
-> Were you using a seed?
->
-> João Paulo Carreiro
->
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
->
-> >From what I've seen it is fairly random within the instance but
repeats
-> horribly otherwise. Had a page that spat out 10 random numbers twice
-> using the same loop but a different Random object. Same numbers would
-> come up every time I loaded the page ;) I can't remember the exact
-> circumstances now, but it was unusable at the time.
->
-> I'd suggest implementing a better random number generator (did it
myself
-> for one project, could send it to you if you want).
->
-> -> -----Original Message-----
-> -> From: Brian W. Spolarich
[mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
-> ->
-> -> Anyone know how strong the .NET RNG is? Does it have any source
of
-> -> entropy (i.e. kernel ticks, etc.)?
-> ->
-> -> -bws
-> ->
-> -> | -----Original Message-----
-> -> | From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
-> -> |
-> -> | That is the intended result. Check the docs:
-> -> |
-> -> | Return Value
-> -> | A number greater than or equal to minValue and less than
maxValue.
-> If
-> -> | minValue equals maxValue, minValue is returned.
-> -> |
-> -> | Thus, it can never equal maxValue (second parameter).

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]

| [aspngcs] member Click here to reveal e-mail address = YOUR ID
| http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspngcs.asp = JOIN/QUIT
Reply to this message...
 
    
Werner Schram
Hmm, try reloading your page, notice how the numbers are unchanged?=20

A random number generator generates numbers based on a seed and the =
last
generated number (using a rather complex function). If you create a new
generator, the last number is set to 0. In your example you use a fixed =
set
of seeds (0 to 999), so the random numbers will be very predictable the
second time you execute it :)=20

Also, if you don't provide a seed, a new seed is generated using your =
system
time, which is different each time you restart your application.

I adapted you example a bit:

<html>
<script language=3D"C#" runat=3D"server">
protected void Page_Load(Object Src, EventArgs E )
{
        Random rnd =3D new Random();
        for(int i=3D0;i<1000;i++)
        {
            Response.Write("Random number is " +
rnd.Next().ToString() + "<br>");
        }
}

</script>
<body style=3D"font: 8pt verdana">
</body>
</html>

-----Original Message-----
From: Stephen Rees [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]=20
Sent: woensdag 3 juli 2002 5:22
To: aspngcs
Subject: [aspngcs] RE: Random Number Question

<html>
<script language=3D"C#" runat=3D"server">
protected void Page_Load(Object Src, EventArgs E )
{
        for(int i=3D0;i<1000;i++)
        {
            Response.Write("Random number is " +
GetRandom(i).ToString() + "<br>");
        }
}

    public int GetRandom(int i)
        {
            Random rnd =3D new Random(i);
            return rnd.Next();
        }

</script>
<body style=3D"font: 8pt verdana">
</body>
</html>

works fine.

-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
Sent: 03 July 2002 02:13
To: aspngcs
Subject: [aspngcs] RE: Random Number Question

Tried it with and without, Tried randomizing the seed with another
randomizer. Tried that 3 levels deep as well, still came out the =
same...
Wonder if I still have the test page for that, probably destroyed it
when I did my own RNG...

-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Jo=E3o Carreiro [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
->
-> Ryan,
->
-> Were you using a seed?
->
-> Jo=E3o Paulo Carreiro
->
-> -----Original Message-----
-> From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
->
-> >From what I've seen it is fairly random within the instance but
repeats
-> horribly otherwise. Had a page that spat out 10 random numbers twice
-> using the same loop but a different Random object. Same numbers =
would
-> come up every time I loaded the page ;) I can't remember the exact
-> circumstances now, but it was unusable at the time.
->
-> I'd suggest implementing a better random number generator (did it
myself
-> for one project, could send it to you if you want).
->
-> -> -----Original Message-----
-> -> From: Brian W. Spolarich
[mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
-> ->
-> -> Anyone know how strong the .NET RNG is? Does it have any =
source
of
-> -> entropy (i.e. kernel ticks, etc.)?
-> ->
-> -> -bws
-> ->
-> -> | -----Original Message-----
-> -> | From: Ryan Trudelle-Schwarz [mailto:Click here to reveal e-mail address]
-> -> |
-> -> | That is the intended result. Check the docs:
-> -> |
-> -> | Return Value
-> -> | A number greater than or equal to minValue and less than
maxValue.
-> If
-> -> | minValue equals maxValue, minValue is returned.
-> -> |
-> -> | Thus, it can never equal maxValue (second parameter).

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]

| [aspngcs] member Click here to reveal e-mail address =3D YOUR ID
| http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspngcs.asp =3D JOIN/QUIT

| [aspngcs] member Click here to reveal e-mail address =3D YOUR ID
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Reply to this message...
 
 
System.Byte
System.DateTime
System.EventArgs
System.Guid
System.Random
System.Security.Cryptography.RandomNumberGenerator
System.Security.Cryptography.RNGCryptoServiceProvider




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